Curse

Inger · Mar 19, 2008, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Now I know the pretty standard Imbagon build is aggressive refrain, save yourselves!, there's nothing to fear and for great justice, with 4 other optional skill slots.

What I'm wondering is why don't people play this for an imbagon:

[card]Save Yourselves![/card][card]There's Nothing to Fear![/card][card]Soldier's Fury[/card][card]For Great Justice![/card][card]Enduring Harmony[/card]

with 3 optional skill slots

Now I know, you lose 1 of your optional skill slots but this is just the IAS is just as maintainable as aggressive refrain, not to mention its 33% IAS rather than 25% and there is no cracked armor.

I'm considering this as a possible change to my build and I'm just wondering if there is some kind of flaw that I haven't considered.

kel77 · Mar 19, 2008, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Why waste your elite spot on an IAS though?
What have you gained by using soldier's fury instead of focused anger?

Esan · Mar 19, 2008, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Indeed, the real secret of the so-called imbagon build is that the IAS is unnecessary. There is this nice little skill called Spear of Fury which will one-shot charge SY! when used cleverly.

Cherng Butter · Mar 19, 2008, 02:28 AM // 02:28

I've seen a paragon run that variant, but...you don't have maintainable doubled adrenaline gain. The 25% isn't bad compared to 33%, and you're ranged anyway so cracked armor isn't terrible.

Savio · Mar 19, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inger

Now I know, you lose 1 of your optional skill slots but this is just the IAS is just as maintainable as aggressive refrain

With Aggressive Refrain, you use it once then hit TNTF on recharge, and it always stays up.

With Soldier's Fury, you might have some downtime, and you have to stop to recast it. Additionally, SY isn't up about a third of the time - which is about the same as with Focused Anger and Aggressive Refrain if you have a 3 second SY, but with 4 second+ SY it's not as efficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Indeed, the real secret of the so-called imbagon build is that the IAS is unnecessary. There is this nice little skill called Spear of Fury which will one-shot charge SY! when used cleverly.

The IAS isn't there just to fuel SY, it also increases your damage output. There isn't a good reason why you wouldn't want an IAS on any kind of paragon.

Spear of Fury doesn't maintain SY as much as an IAS does, not to mention it requires a condition and takes the place of a stronger PvE skill.

MasterSasori · Mar 19, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

The IAS isn't there just to fuel SY, it also increases your damage output. There isn't a good reason why you wouldn't want an IAS on any kind of paragon.

QFT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Spear of Fury doesn't maintain SY as much as an IAS does, not to mention it requires a condition and takes the place of a stronger PvE skill.

By itself SoF definitely doesn't maintain SY as much as IAS does. However, I find it useful as the 3rd PvE skill if you don't have Ebon Standard of Honor just for the high damage output. There is also a good chance that one of your other teammates/heros will be carrying a skill that causes a condition (e.g. Sabway's jagged bomber). You could also carry Anthem of Weariness to use in conjunction with SoF; this is pretty useful in HM.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 19, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

25 IAS and fully maintainable +100%(+) Adrenaline gain is better then 33 IAS and a 15 second downtime of 100% Adrenaline gain when dealing with keeping SY! up.

Sure you might be doing more DPS with 33 IAS in an imbagon build, but in PvE, stress should always be placed on keeping SY! up instead of dealing more damage.

Esan · Mar 19, 2008, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

The IAS isn't there just to fuel SY, it also increases your damage output. There isn't a good reason why you wouldn't want an IAS on any kind of paragon.

Spear of Fury doesn't maintain SY as much as an IAS does, not to mention it requires a condition and takes the place of a stronger PvE skill.

Well, as long as we are talking about PvE, let us be clear that highest DPS is not the point of the "imbagon". In fact, high DPS is guaranteed by the splinter rits and the curse (SS/barbs) and blood (OoP/MoF) necros, IAS or not. In places where maxing DPS actually matters in PvE (i.e., this new fascination with timed elite runs), I'd be using an Essence of Celerity instead of a precious skill slot.

Now about the condition for SoF: clearly you shouldn't throw it at anything that doesn't have a condition. Personally, I have one of the necros use Enfeebling Blood as a starter, so I have a cheap and plentiful source of conditions. If that weren't enough, there's always Anthem of Weariness (though that is a wasted skill slot IMO).

Losing AR also lets me dump TNTF! (whose sole point, as I see it, is to keep AR alive between battles) and gain a whole new PvE skill. EBSofHonor is my personal favorite (and is already enshrined in the PvXWiki version of the build).

ETA: there are nearly no paragon-usable PvE skills stronger than SoF. 1 second activation, up to +6 hits of adrenaline, 6-8 seconds of recharge, and a higher (if shallower) +damage curve than Mighty Throw. That's what the kids call "epic win" these days, I believe.

Savio · Mar 19, 2008, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Losing AR also lets me dump TNTF! (whose sole point, as I see it, is to keep AR alive between battles) and gain a whole new PvE skill.

So:
-TNTF has no value other than to keep AR up.
-Spear of Fury is better than another PvE skill.
-Maintaining SY isn't important.
-IAS isn't important.

Taking all of those into account, why are you bringing an imbagon if you aren't going to bother with the imba part?

Bringing an IAS is the single best way to increase a martial character's DPS, more than any single attack skill. That Splinter Weapon, the necro buffs - all of those get better when you add an IAS. What skills are you so desperately wanting to bring that you can't use a "precious skill slot" for an IAS?

As far as PvE skills go, "I Am The Strongest!", "Finish Him!", and "You Move Like a Dwarf!" are all stronger than Spear of Fury, if you aren't already bringing Ebon Battle Standard of Honor.

Esan · Mar 19, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

-Maintaining SY isn't important.

I don't recall actually saying this. All the other points are debatable.

Clarissa F · Mar 19, 2008, 10:38 AM // 10:38

15 sec downtime for AR? If you are yelling SY or any other shouts/chants(like Koss spamming WY), AR can be maintained indefinitely. It's like a sin with Critical Agility. If you can't maintain it, you are either not fighting at the moment, or aren't doing your job(heard shouts and chants were good for paras).

As for -20 Cracked Armor...
1) You are a ranged attacker with high HP. As long as you aren't Leeroying or wielding a sword, -20 on a character with a base of 96 armor with shield is not a big deal. Other than against elements(ranger), you still have the highest armor in the midrange. I heard somewhere the AI targets low AL/HP.
2) You have two monks, at least one of them probably a Hero. They carry condition removal. Dunk spams condition removal like it's WoH. I hardly ever see Cracked armor for more than a few seconds.

As to the OP: nothing wrong with running SF with Enduring Harmony, especially if you want to give out crazy damage. Thing is, using AR gives you a free elite slot. 25% IAS is plenty, considering the high fire rate the spear already has. When an elite is negligibly better than a normal skill, you can leave it off the bar.

And "only purpose of TNtF is to keep AR alive between battles..."?

Quote:

For 4 seconds and 1 second for every 2 ranks in Leadership, all Party Members within earshot take 15...31% less damage. Affected Party Members are healed for 20...52 Health when this Shout ends.

Nice buff. Why are you keeping up an IAS between battles, anyway?

Esan · Mar 19, 2008, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

Why are you keeping up an IAS between battles, anyway?

Call me crazy, but I like to start my battles with more than 5 energy.

segnisletum · Mar 19, 2008, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Yeah, it might have something to do with 25e that it costs to cast. Rather just spam some other skill than deal with doing that before every fight.

And when did TNTF become just some skill to keep ar up? I'll take a party wide 30%+ damage reduction anytime.

JONO51 · Mar 19, 2008, 01:13 PM // 13:13

I used to run that, but you wont get double adren all the time like you do with the standard one.

Savio · Mar 19, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

I don't recall actually saying this. All the other points are debatable.

Considering that your primary (only?) method of keeping SY up is via Spear of Fury, yes it's less important. If you have any other way of gaining adrenaline faster, Spear of Fury's adrenaline gain stops being important, so you have no reason to bring the skill.

Esan · Mar 19, 2008, 02:17 PM // 14:17

My point is I don't need to gain adrenaline faster. I have a high Kurzick rank (11), so I get (1+5+1)*2 strikes every 8 seconds with SoF, MoF and either FGJ! or FA. To sustain SY!, I need 8 strikes every six seconds. Even without an IAS, I can achieve this. The IAS only ups my DPS, which is fine and dandy, but not essential for the main point of the imbagon -- perma SY!.

By the way, if I wanted max DPS, I'd toss the para and bring a Dragon Slash warrior anyway.

Tyla · Mar 19, 2008, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Unendable IAS > Recast IAS.

Shaz · Mar 19, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

It's not like you compressed the bar any with that change. You've just replace AR with SF, and FA with Enduring Harmony, except your version have a 15 sec downtime of additional adrenaline gain and you have to keep casting SF and EH. Therefore that make it inferior, and that's why people don't use it.

Why would anyone not want to up their DPS is beyond me, even if it's just something small, more DPS is a good thing. Just because you have high Kurzick rank that your SY could last longer doesn't mean you should sac your DPS. At just rank 3 with 4 seconds SY, it can be kept up all the time anyway with an IAS and FA/FGJ.

Esan · Mar 19, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

At just rank 3 with 4 seconds SY, it can be kept up all the time anyway with an IAS and FA/FGJ.

At rank 11, SY! can be kept up all the time without IAS. Hence, IAS is unnecessary. If you continue to misread "unnecessary" as "useless", I shall have to ask you to pick up a nearby dictionary and reacquaint yourself with the basic meaning of words.

Shaz · Mar 19, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

At rank 11, SY! can be kept up all the time without IAS. Hence, IAS is unnecessary. If you continue to misread "unnecessary" as "useless", I shall have to ask you to pick up a nearby dictionary and reacquaint yourself with the basic meaning of words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

Just because you have high Kurzick rank that your SY could last longer doesn't mean you should sac your DPS.

What's your point? Many thing are unnecessary in PvE, doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, unless you want to be bad/inefficient, I guess.